“Hyksos were not slaves, but wealthy merchants and rulers of Egypt. The Hyksos, in fact, ruled Egypt for 108 years. They built palaces and temples at their capital city of Avaris, and had far-flung commercial operations.” Hardly what the Bible describes in any way
Multiple Land bridges? Wow!, you insult the man who discovered the one Land bridge right where the Bible says the Hebrews crossed, then put on your other mask and state there ARE multiple Land-bridges no one knew about until he found that one. His theory isn’t the be all end all, never said it was. Science disagrees though and states there is a LACK of Land bridges in the area, no multiples around ever!
Science seems to agree it happened but wrongly assert something never said, Moses was never said to have done the parting, God did the work since he is master of physical laws that control nature.
“Winds may have parted the Red Sea, and not the biblical and Koran’s account of it, according to a team of researchers. Based on computer simulations, the famous “parting of the Red Sea” could have been caused by a strong pattern of winds and other land phenomena supported by the theory of “wind set-down” based on the laws of physics.”
What they missed was that the Bible said the SAME THING just not according to their VIEWPOINT! The point is there is great president to prove it occurred, and if it occurred then the Bible’s description has as much a chance of being the way as any other!
Debunking “The Exodus Decoded” This is a very good rebuttal, I always look at both sides of an issue.
I’m not saying its all perfectly in line we’re still laying out the understanding, some have one part, others get other parts of the puzzle and its interesting to study!
Yes they were meticulous record keepers about their GREAT HISTORY, but like all mere men of mortal weakness they were PROUD and unable to record that slaves beat them down. If The Egyptians were so proud, would they have admitted they were beaten by their own slaves? Striking things from public record isn’t a modern occurrence only!
Here’s an answer from Yahoo Answers:
Given that the Egyptians were excellent record keepers, where is their account of the parting of the Red Sea?
“Would you chronicle how the God of slaves defeated your multitude of gods and wiped out your entire army? Here is how they documented this event…
The Egyptians picked and chose what they wanted to record. If you read the account of the Merneptah stele, it notes that “Israel is laid waste; its seed is no more.”. True?
They do the same thing today. I went to Egypt and was shocked to discover that they actually won the Six Day War.
In the ancient Egyptian days, yes, they were meticulous record keepers. But they carried these records into the next life. Do you really think they would carry an immense defeat–from SLAVES–at the hands of one single God over their own myriad of gods?
A papyrus called the Admonitions of Ipuwer describes a catastrophe like the Exodus. The author of Admonitions complains of a lack of authority, justice and social order as if the central authority no longer had the will or power to keep control. He also complains about barbarians and foreigners as if the country has been invaded. Nobody is planting crops because they are not sure what will happen. The southern most districts are paying no taxes.
He complains that the Nile has strangely turned to blood and “If one drinks it, one rejects it as human (blood) and thirsts for water.” He wrote, “Grain is perished on every side.” Gardiner dated its events to the FIP but it is conceded that the language and orthography belong to the Middle Kingdom [Wilson, 1969c, p 442].
Velikovsky noted the obvious similarities with the plagues of the Exodus and pointed out that, contrary to Gardiner, Sethe dated the Ipuwer Papyrus to the SIP [Velikovsky, 1952, p. 48-50]. Van Seters also argues for an SIP date [Van Seters, 1966, p103-120].
There are also records beyond the written letter you know. Ancient chariot parts were discovered in the Gulf of Aqaba. The city of Python has lower bricks with straw, mid bricks with stubble, and upper bricks with anything they could get their hands on. Exactly as the event of Exodus chronicles.”
There is historical evidence that they tried to wipe out evidence of things that the newest Pharaoh didn’t want remembered. (i.e., Akhenaton and Hatshepsut) So much for HONESTY in reporting!
You put so much faith in the Egyptians record keeping when they had the most to lose by being honest? All that pride and all. And despise Jewish record keeping and they INCLUDE their own shortcomings along with the fact they experienced God’s miracles…..hmmmm! Seems like you don’t like where it all leads?
Your statement about the wheels is silly, really, it means nothing, is that your story? Their trade routes did go up through the sea and they wouldn’t just throw away their chariots or give them to other nations in trade, they traded food and supplies for slaves not weapons.
Why is there no Egyptian record of a LOSS of a whole armies Chariots in the sea? I’ll tell you, because they had their butts handed to them and pride has stricken it from the records!
Your still stuck on this crappy accusation? Well get ready to be owned again, Oh! I mean deny again, because that’s all you do!
Funny how I can find so much evidence of a non-existent person and non-existent Exodus without a sweat breaking out isn’t it? THIS SITE IS AWESOME!
ABOUT Dr. Aardsma: In case you want to study his credentials.
Ph.D., Nuclear Physics, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, 1984
M.Sc., Physics, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada, 1979
B.Sc., Physics, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada, 1978
NSERC (Natural Science and Engineering Research Council of Canada), Postdoctoral Fellowship, 1984-85, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
NSERC Postgraduate Scholarship, 1979-84, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
NSERC Postgraduate Scholarship, 1978-79, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario
E. C. Stevens Scholarship, 1983, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
Gordon Ferrie Hull Fellowship, 1982, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
E. F. Burton Scholarship, 1981, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
J. C. McLennan Award, 1979, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario
Copernicus Award, 1977, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario
Is there evidence of the Exodus from Egypt?
The following article is based on the book A New Approach to the Chronology of Biblical History from Abraham to Samuel and The Biblical Chronologist Volume 2, Number 2.
Further details and references can be found there.
A Long Reign
Before the account of the Exodus itself, the Bible tells of the enslavement of the Israelite’s and the first 80 years of the life of Moses. One remarkable feature of this story is apparent from the following sequence of events:
A new king comes to power in Egypt who “did not know Joseph.” (Exodus 1:8)
This king orders the death of all newborn Hebrew boys. (Exodus 1:22)
Moses is born into this regime. (Exodus 2:2)
Moses is adopted by the Pharaoh’s daughter. (Exodus 2:5)
Moses grows up, murders an Egyptian, and flees the country. (Exodus 2:12,15)
Moses marries Zipporah and they have a son. (Exodus 2:12,15)
Eventually, “in the course of those many days”, the king of Egypt dies. (Exodus 2:23)
God meets Moses and sends him to the new Pharaoh. (Exodus 3,4)
Moses is 80 years old when he stands before the new Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:7)
The Bible indicates that the same Pharaoh whose daughter adopted three-month-old Moses died when Moses was nearly 80 years old! This Pharaoh must have reigned for a very long time.
Only one pharaoh in the history of Egypt can meet this Biblical requirement—Pepy II.
Pepy II is traditionally thought to have governed the country for ninety-four years… (Grimal, page 89.)
Pepy II’s Successor
From the Biblical account we would expect the reign of Pepy II’s successor to be quite short. This pharaoh had to deal with Moses and the plagues, and the Bible indicates that he drowned in the “Red Sea” with the rest of his army. Grimal makes this mention of the pharaoh who followed Pepy II:
The exceptional longevity of Pepy II resulted not only in the gradual fossilization of the administrative system but also in a succession crisis. The Abydos king-list mentions a Merenre II (also called Antiemdjaf), who seems to have been the son of Pepy II and Queen Neith.
This very ephemeral ruler, who reigned for only a single year, would have been married to Queen Nitocris, who according to Manetho was the last Sixth Dynasty ruler. (Grimal, page 89)
So there is a good fit between the secular history of Egypt and the Biblical account with these two pharaohs; an extremely long reign is followed by a very short reign, as required.
The Biblical account of the ten plagues is quite detailed. It describes the pollution of the water supply, and devastation of the livestock and vegetation of the land. The Israelites left, depriving the land of its slave labor, and they carried away much of the land’s wealth in the form of silver, gold, and clothing (Exodus 12:36).
Also, the army and the Pharaoh were drowned in the “Red Sea,” leaving the country with weakened defenses. The Exodus must surely have left a bold signature in Egyptian history. What do the historians find following the reign of Pepy II’s successor?
Pepy II’s successor was the final Pharaoh of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.
Grimal says: “The Old Kingdom ended with a period of great confusion.” (page 89). Summarizing an ancient Egyptian literary/historical work called Admonitions, which comments on Egypt following the reign of Pepy II’s successor, Grimal says:
It was the collapse of the whole society, and Egypt itself had become a world in turmoil, exposed to the horrors of chaos which was always waiting for the moment when the personification of the divine being – the Pharaoh – neglected his duties or simply disappeared. (Grimal, page 138)
This time period was characterized by famine, an expected result of the plagues described in the book of Exodus. This famine was limited to the Nile valley (Grimal, page 139)—as the Bible’s narrative would lead one to expect.
There was anarchy and a struggle for political power. Egypt’s foreign trade ceased and Egyptian mining in the Sinai peninsula “also seems to have been abandoned” (Grimal, page 139).
The nation of Egypt had obviously suffered a severe blow—as one would expect from what the Bible tells us of the events accompanying the Exodus.
The match between the Bible’s narrative of the Exodus and the secular history of Egypt at the end of the Old Kingdom might possibly be brushed aside as coincidence were it not for the fact that this match happens at the right date according to modern Biblical chronology.
Dr. Aardsma’s chronology places the Exodus 2447+/-12 B.C. The current “standard” chronology of Egypt places the end of the Old Kingdom—when the evidence discussed above says the Exodus happened—around 2200 B.C.
The difference of 247 years between these two dates is close enough for such ancient times to regard the dates as the same. Uncertainties of a few hundred years in historical/archaeological chronologies are normal at such early times in the history of civilization.
Nicholas Grimal notes that “The chronological span of the First Intermediate Period [which must be known to date events in the Old Kingdom accurately] is also a problem.” Haas et al. have suggested, based on an extensive suite of radiocarbon dates (totally independent of Dr. Aardsma’s work), that the First Intermediate Period should be lengthened by about 260 years.
This would push the secular date for the end of the Old Kingdom back to around 2460 B.C., indistinguishable from Dr. Aardsma’s Biblical date of 2447+/-12 B.C. for the Exodus. Pottery analysis in the Sinai Peninsula by E. D. Oren and Y. Yekuteli is also supportive of this adjustment.
Thus the qualitative match between the Bible’s narrative of the Exodus and the secular history of Egypt at the end of the Old Kingdom is supported by quantitative chronology.
Evidence for the Exodus from Egypt is plentiful—as long as one has their Biblical chronology right, and thus knows to examine Egypt’s history around 2450 B.C., rather than around the traditional 1450 B.C.
Grimal, Nicolas A History of Ancient Egypt Cambridge, MA: Blackwell Publishers Inc., 1993.
[Its interesting how every site I go to, too find answers from is biased but hers, which are Atheistic thought are right on accurate]
No direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 400-plus years in Egypt, or the Israelites’ miraculous exodus from slavery.
Atheists are simply avoiding the evidence by denial, your not even fair in your criticisms….WOW its mind numbing how blind you are!
You just argued before, that Orthodox [RELIGIOUS] Jews would not be secular in their practices under penalty of death TO PROVE YOUR ISSUE ABOUT PALESTINE, NOW YOUR SAYING THEY SHOULD HAVE EGYPTIAN PRACTICE AND CULTURE WHICH WAS AGAINST THEIR GOD, IN THEIR REMAINS? That is insane rambling at best!
WHICH IS IT, OR DOES IT MATTER IN YOUR DENIAL?
FROM THE SAME ‘BIASED’ SITE THE ANSWER:
From 1972-1982 the Ben-Gurion University (in Israel) conducted an extensive archaeological survey of the northern Sinai area. They documented 284 sites in northern Sinai where pottery shards and other remains of ancient occupation were found. These sites were arranged in groups with larger sites in the center and smaller sites on the outer edges of the group.
They found that the larger center sites were “base sites” where central activities (such as buying and selling) occurred, that the medium-size sites were family living areas, and the small outer sites were encampments for shepherds. They found that the people who lived at these sites were nomadic, wandering from place to place. They said “In most of the sites there is no evidence of solid building, and it looks as if the inhabitants lived in booths, tents, or lean-tos.”
Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D., showed back in 1995 that these encampment sites were made by the Israelites early in the Exodus. They reveal, in fact, the first three stops along the route of the Exodus: Succoth, Etham, and Pi-hahiroth. These Sinai sites fit the Biblical account very well.
So why do most archaeologists say the Exodus never happened? Because the pottery they’ve found in the Sinai is from about 4,500 years ago, while the traditional date for the Exodus is only about 3,500 years ago. They assume that this pottery must not be from the Exodus because of its date.
But the traditional date for the Exodus is wrong. Dr. Aardsma has shown that a full millennium has accidentally been overlooked by biblical chronology scholars in the past. (See What is the missing millennium discovery? http://www.biblicalchronologi… When the overlooked millennium is restored to biblical chronology, the problem of the missing Exodus pottery shards disappears.
Because the archaeologists have been looking for the Exodus in the wrong time period, they haven’t found it. Unfortunately, they have then gone on to conclude that the Exodus must never have happened. This is the wrong conclusion. When you look in the right time period, there’s plenty of evidence to show that, in fact, the Exodus did happen, just as the Bible describes it.
The foregoing article was based on research reported on in The Biblical Chronologist Volume 1 [http://www.biblicalchronolog… Number 6 and The Biblical Chronologist Volume 2 [http://www.biblicalchronolog… Number 1. Full details and references to the scholarly literature can be found there.”
What’s amazing to me is that you REFUSE to believe even though I’ve proven it over and over again to you, this man is so much smarter than both of us, you saw his credentials! This is the answer you needed but you refuse to look at from a scientific mind, your mind is drowning in unbelief of even solid evidence.
” And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?
And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.
Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not? “
About 3,000 years ago someone put up pillars at the site marking the place of the crossing. It was King Solomon’s pillars, he was very aware of the site and it says it in the bible here: “In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD near its border.” Isaiah 19:19.
You can see the shadow on the Egyptian Side Here: 28°58’11.58″N – 34°38’32.86″E The pillar on the Saudi side was removed after Ron Wyatt showed the authorities where it was. Why? Because it proved Israels crossing there, talk about biased?
There is a place marker there set in concrete. There were inscriptions on that pillar that said: Pharaoh, Mizraim (Egypt), Moses, death, water, Yahweh, Solomon, Edom
RIGHT WHERE IT WAS SAID TO BE:
The Evidence is overwhelming against your claims YOU KNOW IT and I know it, but you’ll do what you always do DENY, DENY, DENY its all you have! THESE EVIDENCES ARE PHYSICAL THINGS FOUND ALONG THE EXODUS ROUTE AND THERE ARE MANY MORE!
I mean really what are the odds that The name Nuweiba is short for Nuwayba’ al Muzayyinah which means “Waters of Moses Opening” wow they named it after a non-existent man? Amazing! At the exact spot where the crossing took place, we have the site confirmed by maps.
Funny how historical physical remains don’t match your mental picture of things but that’s life! Denial has its problems when you don’t have an open mind, but that’s expected from a closed universe of the Atheist.
“wrong again. you deny reality and live with fantasy. how sad for you.
top Israeli archaeologists contest Jewish ties to Jerusalem
[ 08/08/2011 – 05:43 PM ]
OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, (PIC)– Top Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein has denied the existence of Jewish roots in the city of Jerusalem, contrary to Israel’s claims that have prompted continued Judaization of the city.
Finkelstein, a professor at Tel Aviv University, said Jewish archaeologists have failed to unearth historic sites to support some of the stories in the Torah. Among those stories are the Jewish Exodus, the forty-year wandering in the Sinai desert, and Joshua’s victory over the Canaanites.
He also said there was no archaeological evidence that concludes that the alleged Temple of Solomon ever existed.
For his part, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University Raphael Greenberg said that the Israelis should have found something after digging for six weeks in the City of David in East Jerusalem’s Silwan district, but have found nothing in two years of continuous excavations.
Prof. Yoni Mihrazi, an independent archaeologist who has worked with the International Atomic Energy Agency, agreed with Finkelstein’s findings, saying that top settler organization Elad had not stumbled upon even a banner saying “welcome to the city of David”, given that claims were made to have been relying on sacred texts to guide them in their work. “
Moronic, just moronic, I just proved that every thing contained in your rant was not so, proved it by thousands of proofs and all you can do is RE POST the same nonsense, over and over again.
The mounting evidence against your thought process is getting high but still no proof against it only hearsay evidence from self hating Jews and Atheists who have a vested interest in keeping it under wraps.
Of course their are Jews who have vested interest in selling out their own country, its as simple as ‘Goggling them’ but it proves only that. There is little evidence for completely different reasons that you imply.
The Muslims, that you love so much are destroying thousands of priceless artifacts all the time, but no response from you except defending their cowardice on that I’m sure.
They don’t want the evidence to surface and neither to these archeologists you mention here, even if they did they know full well the difficulty digging in those areas and that they may never move beyond a small area where they are now, its insane to take the word of people who know that what their saying is greatly qualified by circumstances beyond their control.
WHAT IF THE EVIDENCE IS IN ANOTHER PLACE? CAN WE GET TO IT? NO, SO THIS POINT IS MUTE FROM THE START. THIS IS ONLY PROVES THAT THE ARABS AND SECULAR ZIONISTS DON’T PLAY FAIR WHEN TRUTH IS UNDER SCRUTINY!
“Piecing Together The Holy Temple
SINCE 1999 THE MUSLIM WAKF, which was granted de facto day-to-day control of the Temple Mount by the Israeli government in 1967, has been conducting illegal construction of an underground Mosque on the southern third of the Temple Mount. In the course of this illegal construction the Wakf has been using heavy tractors to excavate the earth. Both the construction and the excavation have been conducted without any archaeological supervision, rendering both aspects of this violation of the holy site illegal. The stated purpose behind the Wakf’s actions has been both to “create facts” on the ground, rendering the Mount a “Moslem only” site, and to destroy any archaeological evidence of the first and second Holy Temples which stood on the Mount. This is part and parcel of a consistent policy of the Palestinian Authority to deny that the Holy Temple ever existed.
Although many have protested the brazen assault on this holiest of sites, the Israeli government has consistently followed the policy of acquiescence. Even the archaeological community which has been outspoken in its protest, has done little more than throw up its arms in resignation. A young archaeologist by the name of Zachi Zweig, however, refused to stand idly by. Led by Dr. Gabriel Barkay, Zachi organized and oversaw the transfer of the debris from where it was dumped, (illegally), in the Kidron Valley to an alternative location, where a crew of volunteers under Dr. Barkay’s supervision have been painstakingly sifting through the dirt and rubble looking for signs of the past. This constitutes the first archaeological “dig” on the Temple Mount in history. Ironically, archaeological research has been forbidden on the Mount due to the sensitivity of the location for religious, (read, political), reasons.
The Moslem attempt to obliterate any remaining physical evidence of the Holy Temple has actually enabled Zachi and Dr. Barkay to uncover priceless links to the past. It must be kept in mind, however, that the wanton Wakf destruction has severely impaired the ability of archaeologists to properly analyze the discoveries, due to the fact that they were removed from their original location.
And, of course, the archaeologists are not able to study those remnants that were pulverized into dust by the Wakf bulldozers. Yet, despite the adverse conditions, significant discoveries have been made of artifacts from both the first and second Temple era.
Bronze coins dating from the Great Revolt against the Roman authority in the year 70 CE. have been uncovered. Below are three other fascinating discoveries made by Zachi’s crew. Those of us who believe in the historical veracity of the Hebrew Bible do not require archaeological evidence to bolster our convictions, just as those that are willing to employ any and all methods in an attempt to pervert, deny, and obliterate the truth certainly won’t be moved by a few archaeological finds, however startling they may be. Yet these discoveries, as you will see below, can bring us tantalizingly close to a period in human history of nearly a thousand years, when the Holy Temple stood on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem.”
“In an unbelievable disregard for holy respect, scientific principles and simple decency, see what is permitted to go on at the Holiest site on Earth!”
THE VERY FACT THAT THIS IS GOING ON IS PROOF THAT FEAR OF FINDING EVIDENCE IS FOREMOST IN THE MINDS OF THOSE WHO DO THIS COWARDLY THING!
Muslims KNOW that this site is Jewish alone and fear that it can and will be proved someday so they do what all cowards do they bully and intimidate those who look for that proof!
“Despite Israel’s victorious return to the Temple Mount in the miraculous Six Day War of 1967, Moslem authorities have embarked upon a campaign to destroy the Jewish people’s historical and Divinely-appointed connection to this holy site. Their efforts have reached a fever pitch, and nothing is being done to stop them!”
Each place you mentioned unsurprisingly like East Jerusalem`s Arab village of Silwan which is called by Israelis “The city of David” are in dispute so excavations are difficult if not impossible. And with Arab sanction to destroy anything that would prove the Land belongs to the Jews how can anyone expect to get to the truth?
Its interesting how you find the only places where there are no freedoms to dig without great issues being raised, but avoid the obvious evidences I’ve presented. You quote moronic people with little self respect or historical method but avoid dealing with those whose credentials are solid. Interesting but not surprising to anyone!
But things are found nonetheless:
Prior to any construction, laying of infrastructure or development in an area designated as an antiquities site, the developer must underwrite a “salvage excavation”. The purpose of such an excavation is to reveal archaeological remains and document them before they are destroyed or covered by modern construction. By contrast, research excavations are undertaken in order to address specific research issues at sites that may not be in danger of destruction. A dig undertaken for tourism development is termed salvage work, because although some of the remains are preserved and accessible, the motive for excavation and the methods used are often not oriented toward research.
An archaeological site is composed of superimposed deposits or layers. Layers containing remains of material culture such as pottery or stone vessels, especially when they can be related to structures, are identified as occupation layers, i.e. strata that represent daily human activities. The term distinguishes it from layers of earth that piled up over this layer after it was abandoned.
A floor that abuts a wall and does not cover it or is not cut by it may reasonably be assumed to date to the same period as the wall. Finds on this floor would therefore serve to date the walls that it abuts. Finds made on, in or beneath floors are archaeologists’ main dating tools.
In situ finds
A find discovered in its original location. Often, archaeological artifact are displaced by human activity or natural processes. In order to associate an artifact with the place in which it was found, it is necessary to confirm that it is “in situ” (in its place). If it is not in its original place due to past events such as erosion, theft or an unsupervised excavation – the significance of the find is compromised.”
Get real here even if half of this is the case it is clearly done to block, obstruct or otherwise slow down evidence from surfacing and ANYONE JEWISH OR ARAB SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES FOR ALLOWING IT TO HAPPEN!
Archaeological and Historical Evidence of Jews in Jerusalem:
MY ATHEIST FRIEND:
“you have NOT proven anything.
tel Dan Inscription of the Aramean King Hazael?
Three fragments of a 13-line Aramaic inscription discovered by archaeologists of the Nelson Glueck School of Biblical Archaeology in 1993/4 purportedly refer to the “House of David.” One interpretation is that stele records King Hazael’s 842 BC killing of “Jehoram, son of Ahab, king of Israel, and Ahaziah, son of Jehoram, king of the House of David. I set their towns to ruin, their land to desolation.”
The inscription appears to confirm that a chieftain called David was not pure invention yet even so, it contradicts the biblical story that it was Jehu who assassinated the tribal leaders in Jezreel.
“And Jehu drew a bow with his full strength, and smote Jehoram between his arms, and the arrow went out at his heart, and he sunk down in his chariot … But when Ahaziah the king of Judah saw this, he fled by the way of the garden house. And Jehu followed after him, and said, Smite him also in the chariot.” – 2 Kings 9:24,27
But this interpretation of the fragments has been challenged, both by a realignment of the 3 fragments and a corrected rendering of the word “BYTDWD” – not “House of David” but a place-name meaning “House of Praise”.
One problem with the early Aramaic of the inscription (which pre-dates the adoption of the square-form developed in Babylon) is the absence of a dot separating words. “DVD” could mean many things, including, for example, uncle, beloved and kettle.
“The desire to read the letters bytdvd as house of david is … a classic example of scholars working backwards from the Bible rather than forwards from the evidence.”
– M. Sturgis, It Ain’t Necessarily So, p129.
“This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel … the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.”
(Ha’aretz Magazine, October 1999)
In contrast, to the myth of the Israelite empire, the cities of Assyria, Phoenicia and Nabatea have left extant and extensive ruins “
I DON’T DISAGREE that the evidence SO-FAR is sparse, but it is nevertheless there with more to be found as time goes by! You say in Contrast as though there has been NO DESTRUCTION of important artifacts by rival Nations around Israel which if you honest you know IS AND HAS HAPPENED.
This evidence is only a small fragment of the total evidence and will no doubt bring out the nay-Sayers in herds, but its only their desperate attempt to save their secular view from banishment!
“House of David” Restored in Moabite Inscription
A new restoration of a famous inscription reveals another mention of the “House of David” in the ninth century B.C.E.
The recent discovery at Tel Dan of a fragment of a stela containing a reference to the “House of David” (that is, the dynasty of David) is indeed sensational and deserves all the publicity it has received.a The Aramaic inscription, dated to the ninth century B.C.E., was originally part of a victory monument erected at Dan, apparently by an enemy of both the “King of Israel” (also referred to in the fragment) and the “[King of the] House of David.”
The inscription easily establishes the importance of Israel and Judah on the international scene at this time—no doubt to the chagrin of those modern scholars who maintain that nothing in the Bible before the Babylonian exile can lay claim to any historical accuracy.
This so-called evidence by you proves little as well, its conjectural at this point not PROOF.
“The desire to read the letters ‘bytdvd’ as house of david is … a classic example of scholars working backwards from the Bible rather than forwards from the evidence.”
This alone is suspect because it can be said of their results as well, they are working backwards from a secular base instead of a Christian or Jewish one.
So that being said your statements are biased in your favor since it is interpretative at best! I NOT SAYING IT ISN’T TRUE, I’m saying its not in any way a fact as yet so stop using it as a fact.
The House of David Inscription
The House of David Inscription (also known as the “Tel Dan Inscription”) was discovered in 1994 during excavations at the ancient city of Dan. It is considered by many to be the first reference to the “House of David” discovered outside the biblical text.
The House of David Inscription appears to be a fragment of a victory monument erected by a king of Damascus (Aram) during the 9th century BC, some 250 years after King David’s reign. The fragment specifically mentions victories over a “king of Israel” (probably Joram) and a king of the “House of David” (probably Ahaziah).
The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) currently resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.
House of David Inscription
Was king David’s name inscribed on this black stone slab?
An inscription containing the words “house of David” was found on a black basalt stone slab called the Tel Dan Stele, from Tel Dan, Israel, 9th Century B.C.
It was a victory stele erected by an Aramaean king north of Israel. The inscription contains an Aramaic writing commemorating his victory over Israel. The author is most likely Hazael or his son, Ben Hadad II or III, who were kings of Damascus, and enemies of the kingdom of Israel. The stele was discovered at Tel Dan, previously named Tell el-Qadi, a mound where a city once stood at the northern tip of Israel.
The Israel Museum, Jerusalem
House of David Inscription, Biblical Archaeology
1 Kings 2:11 – And the days that David reigned over Israel [were] forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
Material – Basalt Stone Stele
Israel Period of the Kings
Date: 858-824 BC
Height: 32 cm
Width: 22 cm
Tel Dan, Galilee
Excavated by: Avraham Biran 1994
Location: Israel Museum, Jerusalem
Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs Excerpt
The Aramaic Stele
Fragments of the Aramaic stele
Fragments of a large inscribed basalt stele were found in the square located in front of the Israelite city gate complex. The largest of these fragments measures 32 x 22 cm. and, of the original inscription, thirteen lines have been partially preserved. The language is ancient Aramaic.
The 9th century BCE and the beginning of the 8th century BCE were marked by military conflicts between the kings of Israel and the expanding kingdom of Aram-Damascus. (1 Kings 15:20) Thus the stele was erected by one of the Aramean kings of Damascus who captured Dan – although which king cannot be ascertained as yet. It is probable that in lines 7-8 two kings of Israel and Judah, who ruled at the same time, are mentioned: Jehoram, king of Israel and Ahaziah, king of Judah, referred to as a king of the House of David. These two kings were allies and were defeated by Hazael, king of Aram-Damascus. (2 Kings 8:7-15, 28; 9:24-29; 2 Chronicles 22:5)
The stele describing Hazael’s victory over his enemies was, in all probability, erected by him when he conquered Dan in the mid-9th century BCE. It is reasonable to assume that Jehoash, king of Israel, who fought the Arameans three times and defeated them (2 Kings 13:25) recovering territories previously lost, including the city of Dan, symbolically smashed the stele erected there by Hazael, king of Aram-Damascus.
Although the broken stele raises serious historical problems, it is one of the most important written finds in Israel and the first non-biblical text which mentions the House of David by name. It is hoped that more fragments of this unique stele will be uncovered in future excavations.
A line by line translation by André Lemaire is as follows (with text that cannot be read due to being missing from the stele, or too damaged by erosion, represented by “[…..]”):
1′. […………………]…….[……………………………..] and cut […………………….]
2′. [………] my father went up [………………..f]ighting at/against Ab[….]
3′. And my father lay down; he went to his [fathers]. And the king of I[s-]
4′. rael penetrated into my father’s land[. And] Hadad made me—myself—king.
5′. And Hadad went in front of me[, and] I departed from ………..[……………..]
6′. of my kings. And I killed two [power]ful kin[gs], who harnessed two thou[sand cha-]
7′. riots and two thousand horsemen. I killed Joram son of Ahab
8′. king of Israel, and I killed [Achaz]yahu son of [Joram kin]g
9′. of the House of David. And I set [……………………………………………….]
10′. their land …[……………………………………………………………………………]
11′. other …[………………………………………………………………. and Jehu ru-]
12′. led over Is[rael………………………………………………………………………..]
13′. siege upon [……………………………………………………]
Because he did not come to ARGUE about anything he came to seek you out and save your essence from destruction and death. He did not have to do it but wanted to leave glory to be born in this mess so that God could experience what we have to go through.
His love for all of us is so much greater than our hatred for him and not until we open our hearts to see it can we experience that love.
I remember well sitting in a church back in 1979 Drunk and High out of my mind, immersed in the Darkness of Witchcraft, not having any thought about a god existing, I had wandered in at the behest of two Christians who lived in my Dorm with me.
At some point during the service some spiritual force overwhelmed my mind in an envelope of light, a warmth of Love I had never felt before. I am certain that the drugs and the Booze didn’t affect me during that time because seconds after I was totally sober of both, that was my first miracle from that God I didn’t believe cared at all.
For the first time in years I could think clearly and understand God’s care and Love for me, tears fell from my eyes and I weep for a long time, getting out all the abandonment and pain that I had built up in my soul.
I’m not SELLING anything, its a free service that God provides and you keep the power to reason and think for yourself, God requires you to choose for yourself, he requires thinking, skeptical Human beings to come just as they are without giving up anything but their dark souls to him so he can give them light.
If you wish NEVER to speak again I’ll fully understand and respect your choice. But please know that I care about you from my heart, you matter in the larger scheme of the universe. I will leave you with this FINAL PLEA!
love?? love doesn’t create a world such as this with hucksters and shysters sucking the life out of people so they follow what you claim without proof. there never was any proof and there never will be any proof. thats why its called FAITH! because you want to believe its true.
see your problem is you are desperate to convince someone,me,of something i absolutely KNOW is false. i KNOW this as surely as you don’t know it. a creator would not create a soap opera for anyone to follow. what ever created this universe has moved on.”
In order to prove the assertion ‘No God exists’ experimentally, one would need to comprehensively know all of reality.
Comprehensive knowledge which you claim to have because you said you knew ABSOLUTELY that God didn’t exist, that’s called omniscience. One would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God!
According to Atheism THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH which would include Atheistic thought which means you know NOTHING absolutely!
So, based on empirical methodology, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God would be God himself! Pesky fact if you ask me!
Atheism exalts reason, but it is actually irrational.
Atheists tend to put a lot of stock in the empirical method and in logic. One cannot disprove God exists using the empirical method.
You might reply: “But I can’t disprove a giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either.”
Granted, one can NEVER disprove anything exists. The atheistic position of denying God’s existence, if based on the empirical method, is absurd…plain and simple, its a ‘Straw Man’ builder nothing else.
And just so you know I am not the desperate one here, judging from your lack, complete and utter lack of proof [Because insults are no substitute for substance] Its simply a matter of my evidence vs your accusations and which one wins in the minds of those who see these comments!
Your right its not love that made this world the way it is it was DISOBEDIENCE TO THAT LOVE that God gave. The ‘hucksters and shysters’ you speak of are human beings WITHOUT God’s love in control of their lives that’s just plain fact, no matter what they claim to be.
You cannot prove God at fault at all, it US NOT HIM, so where do you go with this lame excuse against God? Atheists have always used FALSE religious principles as an evidence against God but that is utter nonsense since the Bible speaks about these people NEVER HAVING BELONGED TO HIM in the first place.
People who speak in his name CANNOT disprove what is already clear in black and white, they represent NOT GOD but their own agendas, false religious people are not in ministry to acknowledge themselves at Gods expense.
“So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite’s hope shall perish:”
“Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.”
“An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbor: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered. “
God hates hypocrisy NOT the person but the act!
What is hypocrisy? It is acting like one thing while claiming something else as your intention, kind of what you did pretending to be sympathetic to the plight of the Orthodox Jew to advance an agenda of Palestinians.
One of the ways that Atheists TRY to disprove God is the riddle of Epicurus a simple straw man creation.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
In its first step, Epicurus states, “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.”
God is either able to prevent evil, or He is not, this is one of those paint a Christian into a corner arguments that fizzles out once certain facts are seen.
# 1 You are presupposing that there is a God who can’t do everything, that seems strange since he doesn’t exist to do anything in the first place!
# 2 You assume that God IS willing to eradicate Evil AND THAT GOD MUST DO IT THE WAY WE THINK HE MUST DO IT! How arrogant of the Atheist with no understanding of God whatsoever to predetermine how to deal with evil in a world looking for a way to do it. LET’S HEAR JUST HOW TO DO THAT FROM ATHEISTS IF YOUR SO SMART?
God’s way is nothing like our way, we do not and will not get it, so who are we to know the WAY of God plainly shown in scripture and how do Atheists know it isn’t working?
The second step says “Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.” this is another bad reasoning on your part, that God could but won’t deal with evil.
Malevolent means wanting to cause harm: having or showing a desire to harm others, harmful or evil: having a harmful or evil effect or influence hence according to Atheists God is Evil. Again they ignore the Devil in scripture who is plainly that very thing.
NOT TRUE on any count, the Bible reveals that God hates evil and that he made a place for evil to be SELF tormented, no different than our prisons which were built to KEEP EVIL FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD.
Hell is not a torture chamber that God uses to ‘get off’ torturing us forever. The torture of hell is SELF INDUCED BY US KNOWING THE JUSTICE OF GOD FOR SIN. We would truly be tortured if we went to heaven instead of hell, because Hell was created for the specific of keeping evil within its hold, hence God is both willing and able and IS ERADICATING EVIL! In fact God is the sole eradicator of evil in existence.
Step three of the riddle states, “Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil?”
A straw man argument in the making, the bible clearly states that EVIL came from the heart of Lucifer, the first lawbreaker, evil is disobedience to the Laws that God created to contain creation within its perfect operational function, NOT TRAP IT AS EVIL DOES IN A DYSFUNCTIONAL TAILSPIN!
This argument only works with those who can’t think their way out of a straw-man creation, it assumes to much is true without proof that this is how God acts against evil!
The Bible is completely ignored with this argument, the chief evidence to refute it, how typical. Its obvious to anyone that you have to assume to much so what is the point here?
The FORTH and last part of this nonsense riddle [Straw Man] “Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” For one thing Why not knowing this is based upon faulty reasoning and character assassination, totally against the facts of scripture!
This was enough to disprove God to the unintelligent listening to the so-called intelligent?, in the arena of human reason and logic that’s amazing!